What we do know, however, is that when most people are shot, they fall down. It's estimated that chronic kidney disease affects about one in seven American adults. I carry a 9mm on me at all times, and I feel it is adequate enough to do what I need from a handgun, but I have them loaded with 147gr JHP ammo. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). arrow moving at what velocity.200 feet per second? I think its preference and if you can conceal it. Most rounds fired do not hit anyone at all. Because of the impracticality of training for headshots, this examination of handgun wounding relative to law enforcement use is focused upon torso wounds and the probable results. the difference between a 45 and a 9 millimeter and a couple milliseconds of reaction time, it really depends on the situation and again, personal preference. I am not old. In combat the one thing that does count is having more capacity, whether you miss or have more threats to neutralize, more capacity is a good thing no matter how you look at it. Any other manufacturers that have been notified that they are not going to be selected may be waiting for the DoD to make the official announcement. I like the P227 better. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. I usually only post on the Reloading and Springfield portions of this forum, but I feel it needs to be stated of course that all the well educated and sincere folks who have posted actual facts regarding calibers and flung mass "shapes" are simply trying to destroy the internet and forums like these. Involved in a shooting with my partner. 9mm capacity! We traded all the 9s some years ago for the 40 which give knockdown power plus multiple rounds. It was by far the easiest serviced pistol in the field, go ahead and get the lighter frame lighter weight ceramic /plastic and all that junk its fine as long as youre in a urban environment. Open carry is fine where Im at. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. All this is much different than the British Armys approach to marching headfirst into conflict, taking aim and firing. The science says otherwise. I have used the 1911 govt. For those not in the military, go for what you want. I have owned all of the above calibers plus.In S&W, Glock, Sig.CZ,Remington,Beretta.I have taken bob cats,coyotes Jack rabbits Badger with all. Were investigating how it spends its money. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. Mamma and papa went getting along I guess. However, if the bullet lacks a JHP configuration, then its not doing as well as it could. 25 yard 1.52 off hand 5 rnd groups on the nose. For me, that is the Sig p226 9mm. Has the Marine Corp's choice to transition from 45 ACP to 9mm duty pistols settled the debate on which caliber is better? Being only 30 the 9mm argument was often a argument and war waged by my generation of officer. Guns dont kill people. Whats more, for those who are considering purchasing a firearm for home defense, but have not yet done so, it is important to know what kind of firearm is appropriate for your needs. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. We souped up the 38 special to produce it .The 10 Auto was dumb ed down to create the 40sw. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. Okay all handgun are garbage. He kicked in the door and she was able to disarm him ( He was lying next to the bathroom door. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. Take a look at the FBI stats on their testing of various pistol ammunition as well as other reputable studies. This was not a good CC gun so I traded it for a S&W 39-2 9mm. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. Multiple hits are extraordinarily unlikely. But a .45/70 at 1597 fps equals a .270 Win at 3200 fps ballistically on impact and follow through. sledgehammer. Still, the research is not widespread and a great deal of it is not terribly relevant for the average person searching for a reliable self-defense weapon. I do believe that whether its a 9 mm or 45 caliber youve got to be accurate with the placement of that round otherwise youre just wasting shots. Cyst fluid rich in lipids and inflammatory factors is a characteristic pathological manifestation of ACP and may play a very important role in hypothalamic injury caused by tumors. Indeed, physiological factors play a very small part in rapid incapacitation of a target. thanks for your time, greg. The rifle round, which is longer than a pistol projectile, likely also began tumbling after its point collided with his hip. Growing up in Alaska, I have shot more than a fair share of big game. Take it from me, a physics major. So you can rely on us to provide quality pre-owned weapons backed by our famous guarantee. Theres been many people shot and continue. Fire Rate: 1,000 rounds/minute. Is the debate on 9mm vs. .45 (or .40) settled then? They should provide officers who can control the larger weapons a choice about which pistol they are permitted to carry. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. So its definitely capable. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. That changed for me Dec of 2017. A 45acp will deliver more damage to a human body that a 9mm. Fire Rate: 240 As for accuracy, I hear a lot of my friends talking about the accuracy of their 45s over a distance compared to my 9 mm, but no one to date has outshot me on the range, and almost all of my friends have switched to a 9 millimeter in the past few years. Have fun be safe and shoot often for sport and recreation and maybe someday to save your life and loved ones! The .45 knocked him on his ***. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. Like cars and motorcycles its all a matter of preference for each individual.God Bless America and May God keep us safe so we dont ever have to be put in a situation to have to find out. However I agree with you about a .22 in the right place is more deadly than a 50 in the wrong place. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun! It enters the human body at energies approaching the speed of light and They will simply leave their buddy there to die (and hopefully be able to take one of us with him). When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. I can load my rounds as hot as I want, and often do. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. I have been shooting for 50 years now. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . Riley has trained extensively under instructors such as: Rob Leatham, Mike Seeklander, Tim Herron, Scott Jedlinski, Matt Little, Kyle Lamb, Dave Spaulding, Jeff Gonzales, Bill Blowers, Chuck Pressburg, and others, amassing many hundreds of hours of formal shooting and tactics training. .45 ACP FMJ doesnt normally make bad people flop to the ground instantaneously unless it hits the brain or spinewhich is probably what happened, given his skills. Not to mention costs savings in ammo which is a big deal both in the government and civilian perspective. The only thing caliber has to do with it is 9mm is size efficient for capacity. True, Or not? Great article by the way. If these shootings have something in common, it is each and every one is different. This post has been updated to include information released by the FBI regarding the weapon used in the shooting. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. The saying The Quick And The Dead was true. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. In 30 years I saw a shit-ton of things. This can cause more than embarrassment. The only way to ensure immediate incapacitation is to shoot the adversary in the brain or upper spinal cord (i.e., central nervous system). Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. Wondering if these Marine special operators are not only allowed but required to carry exclusively the 15-round Glock 19, why not the slightly larger and higher capacity Glock 17? The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. Indeed, if 9mm used the same grain of bullet, the ft/lb and velocities are near-identical. Just wanted to throw that against the wall. The fact is you will rarely ever have perfect conditions to take the well-placed shot. You might be able to talk to the first guy. Since doing some research on the new ammo for the .380 acp, Ive decided that 17-22 of penetration from Lehigh & Ruger Personal Defense rounds, I carry the Browning Black Label .380. Take it this way, someone shoots at you, you at them. But if stopping power is your only indicator of success in battle, then I suggest a WWII 16 inch navy rifle same as the Battleship Missouri ! However, for the civilian this is generally an impractical plan for a variety of reasons. I sort of like the Canik TP9v2, with Browning BXP xpoint 147 gr load. Where aim for the middle of the whole body. In July, reports indicated that the top candidates in the final running for the new $17 million-dollar Modular Handgun System (MHS) contract to replace the current Beretta M9 included Glock's G17, the Sig Sauer P320, Smith & Wesson's M&P, and the new Beretta APX among others. The germans used 9mm forever and they know their guns and war making. The louder the pop the more credence is added to his choice to continue in his efforts his engagement with you. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. Sound familiar?? And here is where we get to one of the most important distinctions between military/LE and self-defense use; its also where I have some practical experience, having twice been the victim of home invasions, as well as having to defend myself in public in 4 other separate incidents. WebThe.45 acp proved an effective round with greatly improved stopping power. Yes, Im another old Viet Nam Vet. The 9 has more A but the M of the 45 has more than enough to overtake the 9 even the newer ones. At 8yoa my dad taught me to shoot with a 1911. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Just my thoughts and observations over the years. D.R. The best gun is the one that is best in your hands not best someone elses hands. Likewise, there was a big Army study on gunshot wounds and ammunition effectiveness in 1946-47, in which they mentioned that something they saw again and again in Europe was that 9mm bullets were far more likely to shatter bone in a way that contributed significantly to the damage done than any other pistol caliber, including .45. This represents a cultural shift in America. Ruger already dominates the American handgun market, and they are very profitable, so it may not have been worth it to them. We have came a long ways with jackets, cores and construction of bullets in the last 50 + years. Has anyone thought of learning how to control the .45 instead of wimping out after the first shot? When it comes to personal defense, my preferred calibers are .357 Magnum and .45 ACP, with a grudging nod to the .38 Special and 9mm Luger for concealed carry when I simply cannot conceal a larger handgun. 7.62 isn't pistol ammunition though. Possible off hand 200. Factors like these led to the military adopting the Colt .45 ACP pistol as its standard sidearm in 1911. Sad. Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. In this article, we will present what we believe to be the most credible information regarding wound ballistics from studies conducted by the FBIs Firearms Training Academy in legendary Quantico, Virginia. However, in a self-defense situation, the object isnt to kill your attacker; its to end their ability to cause you harm as quickly as possible. The FEE reports that there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million defensive gun uses annually, which means youre more likely to use a gun in self defense than you are to be killed in a car accident. The past 45 years never needed more than one shot. The one thing Ive learned and seen over a lot of shooting is that a 9mm with FMJ bullets is mostly useless. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. Handgun and Patrol Rifle Instructor, a graduate of Trident Concepts Concealed Carry Instructor course, and a Modern Samurai Project Endorsed Instructor. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. This remained the norm in the FBI until May 2014. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. In those 53 years, weve built a reputation as one of Texass most trusted firearms dealers, and we did it in a state where sellers of used guns are almost as common as oil wells and prime rib. The only argument I have ever heard that actually makes any sense is the most recent comment where former law enforcement States the possibility of collateral damage from over penetration. Thanks. I prefer 45 revolvers. Riley, love your artical. Between 14 and 45 , flak jacket and 5 mag 20 7.76 stayed in shape. What I saw in Korea during the Korean War was that the .45 ACP was the most deadly I own one of each 9mil Ruger,Capacity 17 rounds,CZ 45 10 rounds.For stopping power at close range ,I prefer the 45.It is harder to conceal because of its size and weight.The Ruger 9 mil is easier to carry concealed,And a whole lot lighter.Both are comfortable to shoot,to me.A 45 is not for everyone.If you carry concealed the weapon of chose is what you are comfortable with.Handling and performance,depends on the owner.The Military has been changing weapons since day one.I suppose it usually comes down who can supply what the military wants and how much they cost.I personally have handled the Glock 17 and the 19 and dont care for them.I prefer the Ruger or the CZ. Greater tissue displacement is likely to lead to more blood loss. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. Asking that question around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. And it is acceptable to me that they made at least some of their determination based on the need to accommodate smaller hands. (My opinion) I have long advocated carrying 1911s with 8 extra magazines. Now, I read the officers story. Glocks are cheap and reliable. But whats the long term average? I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. Its a freaking tarantula. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. Thank you Rich if you need 15 rounds to put down the assailant youre in trouble already, I have not near the experience of some of the veterans in the service. The ambulance took him away. In my book Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer, I point out that after the FBI shootout in Miami, the FBI Firearms Training Unit, under the leadership of Unit Chief John Hall, tested 9mm, 10mm and .45 caliber rounds. In this dangerous time period, an officers adversary can continue his deadly actions against an officer. How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. Only a few were shot with ball ammo and didnt react as quickly when shot through the ribcage/ shoulders area. Beats. This is important because of permanent cavitation: The greater amount of tissue that is destroyed, the greater chance of incapacitation, all other factors being equal. I think it maybe a case of, its better to wound the enemy, than to kill him. With proper shot placement, I can make my .22 a rock star. by Kyle Mizokami Key Point: These are the bullets that will do the WebAnswer (1 of 16): It does vary, but most of the time a 5.56mm rifle cartridge will have much more destructive potential than a .45 caliber pistol load does. The two most important factors to consider, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavitation. 9mm and 45 ACP are popular for all the reasons listed above. How about a 147gr vs 155 gr comparison? Many do not discover the gun thats right for them as easily as you have (if they ever do)! It can also destroy your aim, and the strongest bullet on earth is useless if it doesnt hit the bad guy coming at you. I still did like the 39-2 for CC. But nearly worthless in real world situations. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity. I know .45 is a good SD round against the two legged threats. Its a High Point .40S&W. round, you can see all three effects. If you have to revisit the basics of projectile ballistics, here is a decent place to start. At least to the U.S. Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command (MARSOC), there is no longer a question. The energy delivered to the target increases geometrically along with increases in mass, and exponentially with increases in velocity.
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